|
Post by Tim_KCRoyalsGM on Aug 19, 2015 11:50:32 GMT -5
That was a MONEY post, Ron. Agree 100%. On the surface it seems like a light contact, but when compared to other infielders? Also. .. Zevin is providing a valuable service to the league. We all have seen the tedious research that Zevin puts in to each situation. Now, multiply that by 32 teams. Contract may be a little light, but. .. Not a CRAZY deal, imho. Especially considering the point Ron makes about Jimenez getting one more big contract at age 34.
|
|
|
Post by Dustin Ackley on Aug 19, 2015 11:53:47 GMT -5
With how hard it is to acquire young good hitting in this league I kinda agree with Nick. Seems like the demand for a hitter in this league is higher which should balloon their price Except no one wants to give me fair value for Richard Crisci, who not only has great ratings, has an extremely team friendly contract!
|
|
|
Post by Nick_BrewersGM on Aug 19, 2015 12:01:33 GMT -5
I should probably keep my mouth shut but I feel compelled to weigh in on this thread. In my personal opinion Jimenez has enormous value. He is one of the few truly elite lead off hitters in the league. He is a catalyst for whatever offense he plays with. I made a huge push to get him from the Diamondbacks and came up short. I personally think his contract is a light. That being said. Every time I have negotiated with Zevin I have been extremely impressed with the research he is doing. He finds similar players and sets the price based on what the market has set. The Padres likely hurt the market by getting (again in my opinion) a steal on the Jack Sellars contract. Much of that was luck as he really struggled offensively before the signing and has blossomed since. But the bottom line is Sellars is only getting 13 million a year. Is Jimenez that much better? Comparing an infielder to a starting pitcher is apples to oranges. The question is what are other infielders getting? As I look at the top contracts there are only 3 infielders (2B,3B,SS) currently making over $18 mil. Reys, Liu and Harrington. The top infielder is Reys at $22.4 mil. Additionally, all 3 of those infielders are 30+. When Jimenez contract expires he will be 34 and still have time for one more huge contract. That's just the numbers I see doing quick research on the webpages. Zevin has never publicly released the analysis he has done with any contract and I don't believe he should. That is too much data and overhead. I am a little conflicted here. I completely support questioning the system. That is how it can be refined and improved. But what is the solution here? Should analysis be available on request for transparency? Maybe, but I am also leery of adding additional burden to the commish. There is going to be differences of opinion of course. But Zevin is providing a valuable service. Way more money is being put into contracts. I don't think there is any debating that. To me the main question here is not "What is wrong with this contract?" The question to me is "Why aren't we spending Free Agent dollars on infielders?" i fully support the zevin. We need him!!! but if top 5 Pitchers are being forced to resign at record deals everytime one has the opportunity to get signed so should top 5 infielders, so should top 5 outfielders, etc.
|
|
|
Post by craigWhiteSox on Aug 19, 2015 15:39:52 GMT -5
Is Jim Irsay the owner of the Pirates? What was that incoherent babble about trade me the best hitter in the league or stop bitching? Let's not forget why Zevin was created or for who it was created for.
On the offer, i have noticed too that Zevin seems to be pricing pitching salaries higher than hitters. Whereas the market shows that hitters are at a premium. An easy comparison is Wang Lui who the commish felt so inclined to give a 7 year 166 million dollar deal. Zevin insists that the free agency market really shows true value of a players worth. I think this would have been a good contract to base it off of, mainly because i think Jiminez is the better player.
This year's free agency market showed the desperate need of hitting, and where teams are willing to place their money. I wish Zevin would get on board with that too. I agree that the Dino Williams and Chris Brant's and Will Taylors of the world should command top 10-15 money of all players in the league. But the list shouldn't comprise of solely the top 10-15 pitchers. It should be the best hitters in there as well
In short, Taylor should be getting paid more annually than Jiminez for sure, but! As Nick pointed out it shouldn't be a 15 million dollar a year discrepancy between the best 2 bagger and a top 3 pitcher in the game. I would just hope, like what NIck said again, there is consistency and when my 2 bagger comes up for extensions i can point to Juan Leon making 20 million a year and knock 15 mil off and get like an 8 year 40 mil deal.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2015 18:21:58 GMT -5
Is Jim Irsay the owner of the Pirates? What was that incoherent babble about trade me the best hitter in the league or stop bitching? Let's not forget why Zevin was created or for who it was created for. On the offer, i have noticed too that Zevin seems to be pricing pitching salaries higher than hitters. Whereas the market shows that hitters are at a premium. An easy comparison is Wang Lui who the commish felt so inclined to give a 7 year 166 million dollar deal. Zevin insists that the free agency market really shows true value of a players worth. I think this would have been a good contract to base it off of, mainly because i think Jiminez is the better player. This year's free agency market showed the desperate need of hitting, and where teams are willing to place their money. I wish Zevin would get on board with that too. I agree that the Dino Williams and Chris Brant's and Will Taylors of the world should command top 10-15 money of all players in the league. But the list shouldn't comprise of solely the top 10-15 pitchers. It should be the best hitters in there as well In short, Taylor should be getting paid more annually than Jiminez for sure, but! As Nick pointed out it shouldn't be a 15 million dollar a year discrepancy between the best 2 bagger and a top 3 pitcher in the game. I would just hope, like what NIck said again, there is consistency and when my 2 bagger comes up for extensions i can point to Juan Leon making 20 million a year and knock 15 mil off and get like an 8 year 40 mil deal. Totally agree with this. Also I'll point out that Jimenez is a billion times better than Lui. Let's be honest no matter what system you point in place its always going to be flawed. Weather its a human looking at it or a computer game. What it really takes away and maybe the only good thing to come out of this Jimenez deal is a "bargain" deal. And I'm not saying anybody deserves one of those but as a real life fan of baseball I'm always excited when someone signs cheaper than I thought. In closing I think we're going to see this more and more coming out of this Zevin stuff. Although a good idea at the time I just don't think its a long term solution to the financial and fair success of the league..
|
|
|
Post by Derek _ Red Sox on Aug 19, 2015 18:59:49 GMT -5
I have a lot to say about this topic, bare with me as I go through these posts and comment on each...
1) I have absolutely zero issue with teams not being happy with the negotiations and the directions they appear to be going in. The idea of Zevin is to bring change to the league in which is severely needed. Playing the role of Zevin is a lot of work! If it wasn't for the best interest of the league, I would not do it.
2) The point of Zevin was to stop us from taking advantage of a weak AI system and one people were GREAT at manipulating. Some of the earlier contracts of Zevin were a bit off as that was expected since its a learning experience but I can also vouch for the efforts of Fin and myself in trying to hammer out more realistic deals. Fin was genius in his idea that we must wait for two arbitration periods as contract demands are much more realistic and gives us a much better basis to begin our negotiation.
3) A bit off topic but Shane is 100% right and I was expecting a post like his many times over so far because he has done such an amazing job building a powerhouse in Pittsburgh that he does get more heat than any GM and he deserves less than anymore and probably the most credit. He has an ability to find players who perform to their ratings or above. He has a great ability to find guys who look sexy as hell with their ratings and move them because he sees reason they will not live to the hype. Shane has done an amazing job in Pittsburgh and its because he has been one step ahead us most of the time and that is the name of the game. I would be bullshit too after every move I made (trade, extension, etc) gets criticized by someone.
4) I need to stress there is a major difference between signing a player to an extension and signing a player in Free agency. There have been times in this Zevin process that teams decided to let a player test the market and that player signed for more money with a new team. There have also been times Zevin lost and Nick is one, got to sign a player for much less than the negotiated price Zevin came up with. Free Agency is a different beast and that has been demonstrated with Bianchetti signing for $245 million, Chris Thornton this year getting $200 million, etc. I value the salary over a recently extended player over that one of who just signed a FA contract.
These two comments are both ridiculous and falsely informed and mentioned without proper information.
What constitutes what a player should be worth over another one? You want to have a discussion non this then I will but come with information not opinion. Here is a real life example, in 2014 Clayton Kershaw posted an 8.0 WAR for the LA Dodgers and he is making $32m this year now as a starting pitcher. Adrian Beltre is a 3B who had a 7.9 WAR for the Texas Rangers last year, he is making $16m this year. There are a hundred examples and ways of breaking this down not a be all, end all for either side.
What YOU as everyone else was told about the Zevin process was not to gets players to "not even want to sign extensions to force players into free agency." What I said the point of Zevin is to make it MORE realistic for teams to sign every player that they want to sign and need to make decisions on which players they need to commit too and determine if they should trade them before their contract is up or risk losing them in free agency.
This also means that you have to be cautious of your market and work under you limitations. If your Miami then maybe its not the right decision to trade for a guy who is going to command top dollar at his position.
That is not a precedent that we set. That is the reality of baseball, fictional or not.
You want consistency and I want the truth being told. I never said you have to pay Will Taylor a "ridiculous amount because we want to make it extremely hard to resign superstars" I said you have to pay Will Taylor because Will Taylor DESERVES to be paid big time money. This was determined by his rating, performance, demands, his value at his position, current market analysis at his position and inflation. There is a big difference in what you're saying I said and the way I operate with Zevin. Lets clear that up immediately.
Ron, I think responded with a great post, very insightful and questioned the right things, etc. Always great to hear you contribute because its so spot on.
To answer your question "Why aren't we spending Free Agent dollars on infielders?" the answer is because we act like real life General Managers. Looking at 2B/3B/SS across MLB, the top 5 salaries at each of those three positions average out to $15.5 million. In the PBL, the average is $13.9 and the number is rising now Zevin took over and are increasing those demands.
Those positions are being signed to deal at record levels as well but the demands for SPs are and will continue to be much higher. Look at outfielders alone. In 2034, Jorge Fernandez signed an extension with the Yankees that was 7 years, $163 million. 6 months later, the Padres locked up Arturo Rivera to an 8-year deal worth $216 million. A pretty huge difference here.
In closing, We have done extension review of salaries at each position and based on different levels and this is what I can tell you as well, the PBL is pretty damn close to MLB numbers and with more time in this process we will catch up and surpass those numbers as we should through inflation:
Highest Catcher: MLB $18.5m PBL $30m Top 5 Catchers: MLB $15.7m PBL $15.3m Top 10 Catchers: MLB $11.4m PBL $10.3m
Highest 1B: MLB $25m PBL $23.5m Top 5 1B: MLB $23.5m PBL $18.5m Top 10 1B: MLB $21.5m PBL $15.4m
Highest 2B: MLB $24m PBL $21.7 Top 5 2B: MLB $15.6m PBL $13.8 Top 10 2B: MLB $12.3m PBL $10.6m
Highest SS: MLB $17.7m PBL $22.4m Top 5 SS: MLB $15.0m PBL $15.3m Top 10 SS: MLB $12.1m PBL $12.9m
Highest 3B: MLB $19.0m PBL $21.5m Top 5 3B: MLB $15.9m PBL $12.7m Top 10 3B: MLB $12.6m PBL $8.4m
Highest OF: MLB $25.0m PBL $30.0m Top 5 OF: MLB $23.6m PBL $22.2m Top 10 OF: MLB $21.3m PBL $17.4m
Highest SP: MLB $30.7m PBL $35.0m Top 5 SP: MLB $27.5m PBL $26.0m Top 10 SP: MLB $26.1m PBL $21.8m
Highest MR: MLB $13.0m PBL $11.0m Top 5 MR: MLB $11.5m PBL $9.4m Top 10 MR: MLB $9.8m PBL $7.4m
Highest CL: MLB $12.5m PBL $11.0m Top 5 CL: MLB $10.5m PBL $10.1m Top 10 CL: MLB $9.9m PBL $9.1m
These numbers show the PBL is growing to MLB averages and that is a great sign. This is what it should of been doing and realistically we should of been well beyond these averages due to being 20 years into the future. I have done a lot of work on budgets, etc as well to make sure I'm keeping track of everything and things go hand in hand (more on this another day!).
I feel we are in a very good spot and we are doing the right thing. There are going to be things as a GM and competitor that we do not like but it does not mean the system is flawed or inconsistent or your being screwed.
I have no problem with these discussions, in fact I LOVE THEM but I hope this serves as a reminder we are not covering our eyes and throwing at a dartboard. We put a lot of behind the scenes work into everything we do in this league and the process is working.
|
|
|
Post by Derek _ Red Sox on Aug 19, 2015 19:09:09 GMT -5
Interesting take. Career numbers so far: Stanton Jimenez (865 games) | Wang Liu (416 games) | .299 batting average | .294 batting average | .389 on-base % | .389 on-base % | .369 slugging % | .381 slugging % | .758 OB+SLUG% | .770 OB+SLUG% | 119 OPS + | 121 OPS+ | .332 wOBA | .340 wOBA | 1.1 hits / game | 11 hits / game | 0.3 RBI / game | 0.4 RBI / game | 15 homers / 499 runs | 12 homers / 251 runs |
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2015 19:13:26 GMT -5
Take away those first 3 years from Jimenez though
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2015 19:16:26 GMT -5
That stats on Lui end is very very mis leading because of that great year in Boston (shocking). You can stat me to death but we all know who is way way way way better.
|
|
|
Post by Derek _ Red Sox on Aug 19, 2015 19:17:26 GMT -5
Take away those first 3 years from Jimenez though Fine take out those first three years from Jimenez and project his number but then erase last year when Liu was moved twice and project his numbers you're still looking at same stats.
|
|
|
Post by Derek _ Red Sox on Aug 19, 2015 19:18:17 GMT -5
That stats on Lui end is very very mis leading because of that great year in Boston (shocking). You can stat me to death but we all know who is way way way way better. Dude, this is a STAT BASED game. We don't get benefit of watching film. He had a great year in Boston, a very good year in boston then was traded twice in a year which means automatic slump in OOTP world..
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2015 19:20:39 GMT -5
Bottom line and this takes care of everything NOBODY should be signed before 5 years and 172 days. ARB should be seen all the way through. OOTP 16 has done a very good job of tightening the screws on this stuff. In the end I'm not really caring who makes what. Not my field but the eye test I'd take Jimenez over Lui if he was making 10M more than him.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2015 19:28:20 GMT -5
And I'm not even bitching about the money. I just know who the better player is that's all. If any of you want Lui over Jimenez then you need your head checked. I like the Jimenez contract. Some of these need to come down. And like I said I like the surprise oh look he signed for cheaper than I thought aspect. I think people here are thinking the Pirates are the 1% and always seem to catch breaks. At least that's the vibe I get in these multiple happenings.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2015 19:41:48 GMT -5
Hey Commish i'm loving this, debates are always fun i personally don't have a problem with the money, what bothers me is that a player in his walk year, having a 368/479/421 slashline and a 1.9 WAR as of today, being known for a very high greed and intelligence and a low desire for win wouldn't sign an extension in the middle of the season, it's unrealistic, there is no way he would do that, players don't like to negotiate extensions in the middle of the season as it is, Esteves would never do it, with his personality
|
|
|
Post by Derek _ Red Sox on Aug 19, 2015 19:48:48 GMT -5
Hey Commish i'm loving this, debates are always fun i personally don't have a problem with the money, what bothers me is that a player in his walk year, having a 368/479/421 slashline and a 1.9 WAR as of today, being known for a very high greed and intelligence and a low desire for win wouldn't sign an extension in the middle of the season, it's unrealistic, there is no way he would do that, players don't like to negotiate extensions in the middle of the season as it is, Esteves would never do it, with his personality Its not my place to determine when a player would do it or not. I know what you're saying but that's too much work.
|
|