Hall of Fame Pyramid - Table of Contents and Introduction
Mar 15, 2019 10:06:15 GMT -5
RandyP, Rich - Former GM, and 8 more like this
Post by sansterre - Milwaukee Brewers on Mar 15, 2019 10:06:15 GMT -5
Honorable Mention Tier:
Catchers
First Basemen
Second Basemen
History 1901-1909
Third Basemen
Shortstops
Right Fielders
History 1910-1919
Center Fielders
Left Fielders
Starting Pitchers, pt 1
History 1920-1929
Starting Pitchers, pt 2
Relief Pitchers
Starting Pitchers, pt 3
Managers & GMs
Starting Pitchers, pt 4
Bronze Tier:
Catchers
History 1930-1939
First Basemen
Second Basemen
Third Basemen
History 1940-1949
Shortstops
Right Fielders
Center Fielders
Clash of Titans, Best World Series 1901-1949
Left Fielders
Starting Pitchers, pt 1
Relief Pitchers
Starting Pitchers, pt 2
History 1950-1959
Managers & GMs
Silver Tier:
Catchers
First Basemen
History 1960-1969
Second Basemen
Third Basemen
Shortstops
History 1970-1979
Right Fielders
Center Fielders
Left Fielders
History 1980-1989
Starting Pitchers, pt 1
Relief Pitchers
Starting Pitchers, pt 2
Managers & GMs
History 1990-1999
Gold Tier:
Catchers
First Basemen
Second Basemen
Clash of Titans, Best World Series 1950-1999
Third Basemen
Shortstops
Right Fielders
History 2000-2009
Center Fielders
Left Fielders
Starting Pitchers
History 2010-2019
Relief Pitchers
Managers & GMs
Diamond Tier:
Catchers
History 2020-2029
First Basemen
Second Basemen
Third Basemen
History 2030-2039
Shortstops
Right Fielders
Center Fielders
History 2040-2049
Left Fielders
Starting Pitchers
Relief Pitchers
Clash of Titans, Best World Series 2000-2049
Managers & GMs
The Pantheon:
Best Teams Ever: #100-91
Catchers
Best Teams Ever: #90-81
First Basemen
Best Teams Ever: #80-71
Second Basemen
Best Teams Ever: #70-61
Third Basemen
Best Teams Ever: #60-51
Shortstops
Right Fielders
Best Teams Ever: #50-41
Center Fielders
Best Teams Ever: #40-31
Left Fielders
Best Teams Ever: #30-21
Starting Pitchers
Best Teams Ever: #20-11
Relief Pitchers
Best Teams Ever: #10-6
Managers & GMs
Best Teams Ever: #5-1
The Greatest Player Ever?
Hi everybody! My name is Meg and I’ll be your tour guide today! Is this everyone’s first time to the Sansterre Hall of Fame Pyramid? All right! How exciting! I’ve got a lot to show you today; that’s why we’re starting in the morning! We’re like the Ikea of Hall of Fames, but with Hebrew Nationals instead of Swedish Meatballs!
Anyhow, let me get a quick count . . . Looks like we’re missing a few people still. Okay, well while we’re waiting there’s plenty to go over. This building is structured like a pyramid, hence the name. Mr. Sansterre was motivated by the desire to showcase the history of the game, but also to try and sort the Hall into different tiers of players. That way the people who want to honor the history get what they want, and the Rogers Hornsbys of the world, who want “only the select few” get those few separated out. Plus it looks so fetching!
Right here we’re on the ground floor. This floor is for the Honorable Mentions, the players that don’t truly rise to the level of performance necessary to be in the Hall, but who were good enough that we couldn’t justify leaving them out. The next floor up is the Bronze Level (Mr. Sansterre was mighty keen on these names). Bronze Level players are pretty much all in Cooperstown; if you’re a Bronze Player you’re really, really good.. The next floor up is the Silver Level; Silver players are good enough that they’ve probably won some serious hardware and were either consistently great or occasionally tremendous. Above that is, yes, the Gold Level; Gold players all put up multiple MVP-level seasons, some of the best in the game. Above that is the Diamond Level; these players were probably Top 5 players in the league for most of their career. And at the very top is the Pantheon. The Pantheon is Mount Olympus; only the truly stratospheric make it there, no more than one or two for most positions. If your name and the phrase “greatest of all time” never come up together in any capacity, you have zero shot at the Pantheon.
Along the way we’ll go through some history. Every few sections we’ll pass through a decade of history, to try and provide some context to how the game has changed over the last century and a half.
How did we decide who could get into what tier? Mostly based on very simple formula of Mr. Sansterre’s own devising, the JONS rating. Does everyone know what WAR is? Ha ha, that’s right, no, I mean, Wins Above Replacement level. It’s basically an elaborate formula that calculates, ballpark (hee hee), how many wins a given player was worth to their team over a Replacement Level player of their position. How good is Replacement Level? Great question. Basically, think of the level that is so easily obtainable it’s practically worthless, like above average Triple-A. A two WAR player is about an average starter, a five WAR player is an All-Star and any season at eight WAR or above is MVP-level. Ten WAR seasons are historically great; you don’t see many of those outside of the Pantheon.
So right, the formula. Basically, we ignore anything below two WAR. Imagine a player that played at the level of an average starter (two WAR) for thirty-five years. Yes, I know this is impossible, but bear with me. His counting stats would be incredible, which goes to show you that counting stats have some issues as reliable indicators of greatness. But would he have any business being honored as an All-Time Great? We say not. Only greatness matters here, so we only count WAR scores above 2. Beyond that we modify it slightly so that WAR gets slightly more valuable toward the top. So a four WAR season is twice as good as a three WAR season and a nine WAR season is four times as good as a four WAR season. This building is meant to celebrate greatness, not reward consistent mediocrity.
Are there any downsides to the formula? Sure. Pitch Framing stats aren’t really easily available, so that isn’t counted in the formula. Defensive value before the turn of the millenium is mostly a calculated estimate, so there are some imperfections that way. Exciting things like steals don’t get much respect, unless the players got caught very rarely. Home runs are certainly celebrated but no more than three walks. I know, that sounds crazy, but three walks and one home run are about equally valuable. Honestly I couldn’t explain it; I remember the presentation when I started working here but that was a long time ago. As far as factors outside of the formula we consider hardware as an important factor, but even that gets tricky. Did you know that the AP Most Valuable Player Award didn’t come out until 1931, All-Stars weren’t a thing until 1933, Gold Gloves not until 1957 and Silver Sluggers not until 1980? So we can’t hold it against, say, Nap Lajoie that he didn’t win any awards, because most of them existed outside of his career. We try, within reason, to respect subjective factors. But the JONS rating is the primary controller of who gets into what tier.
This is a combination Major League Baseball and Paramount Baseball Hall of Fame. Does anyone know when that transition happened? That’s right, 2010. Why do I bring this up? Because the contributions of players outside of those leagues are not considered in this building. What does this mean? It means that players who played primarily before 1901 aren’t represented here. Yes, no Old Hoss Radbourn. What’s that? Mmm, right, but remember, that wasn’t Major League Baseball then, it was mostly just the National League. The MLB didn’t exist until Ban Johnson founded the American League in 1901, and even then it took a few years for the two leagues to agree to the functional merger. There were certainly plenty of great players back then, but the game was so completely different back then it would be really hard to compare.
Yes, that means that the Negro Leagues aren’t represented here either. Yes, it’s unfair, but there’s no informed way to sort through their players and compare them to those of the Major Leagues. That said, since the remaining four people *still* haven’t shown up, I’m going to talk about some of those players anyway. For example, it’s hard not to talk about Cool Papa Bell. The Negro Leagues favored deadball-era strategies; lots of execution and manufacturing runs. A good runner in those leagues was considered one who could make it from first to third on a bunt. Cool Papa Bell, according to legend, was so fast that he could go from first to home on a bunt. Oscar Charleston was another; he started playing in the Negro Leagues in 1915 and was such a gifted all-around player that he was compared to Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker and Babe Ruth all rolled into one. Let’s not forget about Martin Dihigo - Yeah Burt! I see you looking at me! Keep walking!
Sorry about that. Burt’s a good boss, but he gets a little ornery when I go off-script. Anyhow, where was I? Oh, Martin Dihigo. Dihigo could play every position, including pitcher. Johnny Mize, one of the best first basemen ever (you’ll be meeting him this afternoon!) spoke of how, when the two played in the Cuban Leagues together, the pitchers would pitch around Dihigo to get to Mize. Remember, Mize is one of the best ever, and these pitchers (who knew both players) pitched around Dihigo to get to him! That says something. Or what about Josh Gibson? Gibson was considered the best power hitter in Negro League history, estimated to have hit over a thousand home runs in his day. But get this; he played Catcher. Think he’d be in the Pantheon if he had been allowed to play in the Majors? You better believe it. As for pitchers, you can talk about Smokey Joe Williams, Bullet Joe Rogan or Leon Day, but Satchel Paige is the one everyone likes to talk about.
Paige was either six-three or six-five (depending on who you asked) and weighed no more than 130 or 140. Not only was he perhaps the best Negro League pitcher but he had a style all his own. When offered a hefty sum of money to play on a semi-pro team in White-Face, he is reputed to have rejected the offer, saying, “I won’t do it. It’s not because of the White-Face; I think I’d look damn good in White-Face. It’s because nobody would believe it. Once I start pitching, everyone will know it’s me. They all know there’s only one pitcher in the world that good.” Another great Satchel Paige story . . . In the 1942 Negro League World Series, Paige and Josh Gibson were on opposite teams. They’d been teammates before for many years, and each wanted to test their skills against the other. Paige’s team had a small lead in the ninth, with a man on third but two outs and Gibson in the hole. Paige deliberately walks the next two batters so that Gibson is up to bat with the bases loaded and two outs, to decide the World Series. Paige proceeds to strike him out on three straight pitches, talking smack the whole time. He sure was something.
A little about me? Okay, sure, Burt isn’t looking. My great, great, great grandmother was Doris Sans, who if you didn’t know was a six-tool player for the AAGPBL. My great, great grandmother was a Brooklyn Dodgers fan whose heart was broken when they were shipped off to Los Angeles. My great grandmother was a die-hard Mets fan who sent Tom Seaver her underwear no less than three times. My grandparents moved to Pittsburgh because of my grandfather’s job and they took up rooting for the Pirates. You’d think it was a different world then; when they talk about it they talk about how hopeless that team was. Hard to believe, right? A time when the Pirates were considered hopeless? I never got to experience that. When my mother was eleven Shane Callahan took over the Pirates. She was fifteen when they won 100 games for the first time. She was sixteen when they won their first World Series in this century. I grew up with stories of Roberto Vasti and Jameson Taillon, of baseball the way it was meant to be played. My parents have an autographed picture of Shane Callahan over their dining room table and I don’t think it’s ever coming down. If I had a nickel every time I heard that the Pirates had been to the playoffs more than any other team because this is God's city . . . Let’s just say baseball is in my blood. Reminds me of a funny story -
Oh, are you my last four? Okay. Well everybody, I hope you’re ready for a full day, because this knowledge train is leaving the station! Follow me, okay, through these doors, and here we are. This is the Honorable Mention section. As you can imagine, there are a lot of them. That’s why this is a pyramid, because there are fewer at the top than at the bottom. Our first stop . . . Catchers!
** It's me. Just be patient with this. If my estimates are accurate, even if everything goes well this should take two-three months to crank out.
Catchers
First Basemen
Second Basemen
History 1901-1909
Third Basemen
Shortstops
Right Fielders
History 1910-1919
Center Fielders
Left Fielders
Starting Pitchers, pt 1
History 1920-1929
Starting Pitchers, pt 2
Relief Pitchers
Starting Pitchers, pt 3
Managers & GMs
Starting Pitchers, pt 4
Bronze Tier:
Catchers
History 1930-1939
First Basemen
Second Basemen
Third Basemen
History 1940-1949
Shortstops
Right Fielders
Center Fielders
Clash of Titans, Best World Series 1901-1949
Left Fielders
Starting Pitchers, pt 1
Relief Pitchers
Starting Pitchers, pt 2
History 1950-1959
Managers & GMs
Silver Tier:
Catchers
First Basemen
History 1960-1969
Second Basemen
Third Basemen
Shortstops
History 1970-1979
Right Fielders
Center Fielders
Left Fielders
History 1980-1989
Starting Pitchers, pt 1
Relief Pitchers
Starting Pitchers, pt 2
Managers & GMs
History 1990-1999
Gold Tier:
Catchers
First Basemen
Second Basemen
Clash of Titans, Best World Series 1950-1999
Third Basemen
Shortstops
Right Fielders
History 2000-2009
Center Fielders
Left Fielders
Starting Pitchers
History 2010-2019
Relief Pitchers
Managers & GMs
Diamond Tier:
Catchers
History 2020-2029
First Basemen
Second Basemen
Third Basemen
History 2030-2039
Shortstops
Right Fielders
Center Fielders
History 2040-2049
Left Fielders
Starting Pitchers
Relief Pitchers
Clash of Titans, Best World Series 2000-2049
Managers & GMs
The Pantheon:
Best Teams Ever: #100-91
Catchers
Best Teams Ever: #90-81
First Basemen
Best Teams Ever: #80-71
Second Basemen
Best Teams Ever: #70-61
Third Basemen
Best Teams Ever: #60-51
Shortstops
Right Fielders
Best Teams Ever: #50-41
Center Fielders
Best Teams Ever: #40-31
Left Fielders
Best Teams Ever: #30-21
Starting Pitchers
Best Teams Ever: #20-11
Relief Pitchers
Best Teams Ever: #10-6
Managers & GMs
Best Teams Ever: #5-1
The Greatest Player Ever?
Hi everybody! My name is Meg and I’ll be your tour guide today! Is this everyone’s first time to the Sansterre Hall of Fame Pyramid? All right! How exciting! I’ve got a lot to show you today; that’s why we’re starting in the morning! We’re like the Ikea of Hall of Fames, but with Hebrew Nationals instead of Swedish Meatballs!
Anyhow, let me get a quick count . . . Looks like we’re missing a few people still. Okay, well while we’re waiting there’s plenty to go over. This building is structured like a pyramid, hence the name. Mr. Sansterre was motivated by the desire to showcase the history of the game, but also to try and sort the Hall into different tiers of players. That way the people who want to honor the history get what they want, and the Rogers Hornsbys of the world, who want “only the select few” get those few separated out. Plus it looks so fetching!
Right here we’re on the ground floor. This floor is for the Honorable Mentions, the players that don’t truly rise to the level of performance necessary to be in the Hall, but who were good enough that we couldn’t justify leaving them out. The next floor up is the Bronze Level (Mr. Sansterre was mighty keen on these names). Bronze Level players are pretty much all in Cooperstown; if you’re a Bronze Player you’re really, really good.. The next floor up is the Silver Level; Silver players are good enough that they’ve probably won some serious hardware and were either consistently great or occasionally tremendous. Above that is, yes, the Gold Level; Gold players all put up multiple MVP-level seasons, some of the best in the game. Above that is the Diamond Level; these players were probably Top 5 players in the league for most of their career. And at the very top is the Pantheon. The Pantheon is Mount Olympus; only the truly stratospheric make it there, no more than one or two for most positions. If your name and the phrase “greatest of all time” never come up together in any capacity, you have zero shot at the Pantheon.
Along the way we’ll go through some history. Every few sections we’ll pass through a decade of history, to try and provide some context to how the game has changed over the last century and a half.
How did we decide who could get into what tier? Mostly based on very simple formula of Mr. Sansterre’s own devising, the JONS rating. Does everyone know what WAR is? Ha ha, that’s right, no, I mean, Wins Above Replacement level. It’s basically an elaborate formula that calculates, ballpark (hee hee), how many wins a given player was worth to their team over a Replacement Level player of their position. How good is Replacement Level? Great question. Basically, think of the level that is so easily obtainable it’s practically worthless, like above average Triple-A. A two WAR player is about an average starter, a five WAR player is an All-Star and any season at eight WAR or above is MVP-level. Ten WAR seasons are historically great; you don’t see many of those outside of the Pantheon.
So right, the formula. Basically, we ignore anything below two WAR. Imagine a player that played at the level of an average starter (two WAR) for thirty-five years. Yes, I know this is impossible, but bear with me. His counting stats would be incredible, which goes to show you that counting stats have some issues as reliable indicators of greatness. But would he have any business being honored as an All-Time Great? We say not. Only greatness matters here, so we only count WAR scores above 2. Beyond that we modify it slightly so that WAR gets slightly more valuable toward the top. So a four WAR season is twice as good as a three WAR season and a nine WAR season is four times as good as a four WAR season. This building is meant to celebrate greatness, not reward consistent mediocrity.
Are there any downsides to the formula? Sure. Pitch Framing stats aren’t really easily available, so that isn’t counted in the formula. Defensive value before the turn of the millenium is mostly a calculated estimate, so there are some imperfections that way. Exciting things like steals don’t get much respect, unless the players got caught very rarely. Home runs are certainly celebrated but no more than three walks. I know, that sounds crazy, but three walks and one home run are about equally valuable. Honestly I couldn’t explain it; I remember the presentation when I started working here but that was a long time ago. As far as factors outside of the formula we consider hardware as an important factor, but even that gets tricky. Did you know that the AP Most Valuable Player Award didn’t come out until 1931, All-Stars weren’t a thing until 1933, Gold Gloves not until 1957 and Silver Sluggers not until 1980? So we can’t hold it against, say, Nap Lajoie that he didn’t win any awards, because most of them existed outside of his career. We try, within reason, to respect subjective factors. But the JONS rating is the primary controller of who gets into what tier.
This is a combination Major League Baseball and Paramount Baseball Hall of Fame. Does anyone know when that transition happened? That’s right, 2010. Why do I bring this up? Because the contributions of players outside of those leagues are not considered in this building. What does this mean? It means that players who played primarily before 1901 aren’t represented here. Yes, no Old Hoss Radbourn. What’s that? Mmm, right, but remember, that wasn’t Major League Baseball then, it was mostly just the National League. The MLB didn’t exist until Ban Johnson founded the American League in 1901, and even then it took a few years for the two leagues to agree to the functional merger. There were certainly plenty of great players back then, but the game was so completely different back then it would be really hard to compare.
Yes, that means that the Negro Leagues aren’t represented here either. Yes, it’s unfair, but there’s no informed way to sort through their players and compare them to those of the Major Leagues. That said, since the remaining four people *still* haven’t shown up, I’m going to talk about some of those players anyway. For example, it’s hard not to talk about Cool Papa Bell. The Negro Leagues favored deadball-era strategies; lots of execution and manufacturing runs. A good runner in those leagues was considered one who could make it from first to third on a bunt. Cool Papa Bell, according to legend, was so fast that he could go from first to home on a bunt. Oscar Charleston was another; he started playing in the Negro Leagues in 1915 and was such a gifted all-around player that he was compared to Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker and Babe Ruth all rolled into one. Let’s not forget about Martin Dihigo - Yeah Burt! I see you looking at me! Keep walking!
Sorry about that. Burt’s a good boss, but he gets a little ornery when I go off-script. Anyhow, where was I? Oh, Martin Dihigo. Dihigo could play every position, including pitcher. Johnny Mize, one of the best first basemen ever (you’ll be meeting him this afternoon!) spoke of how, when the two played in the Cuban Leagues together, the pitchers would pitch around Dihigo to get to Mize. Remember, Mize is one of the best ever, and these pitchers (who knew both players) pitched around Dihigo to get to him! That says something. Or what about Josh Gibson? Gibson was considered the best power hitter in Negro League history, estimated to have hit over a thousand home runs in his day. But get this; he played Catcher. Think he’d be in the Pantheon if he had been allowed to play in the Majors? You better believe it. As for pitchers, you can talk about Smokey Joe Williams, Bullet Joe Rogan or Leon Day, but Satchel Paige is the one everyone likes to talk about.
Paige was either six-three or six-five (depending on who you asked) and weighed no more than 130 or 140. Not only was he perhaps the best Negro League pitcher but he had a style all his own. When offered a hefty sum of money to play on a semi-pro team in White-Face, he is reputed to have rejected the offer, saying, “I won’t do it. It’s not because of the White-Face; I think I’d look damn good in White-Face. It’s because nobody would believe it. Once I start pitching, everyone will know it’s me. They all know there’s only one pitcher in the world that good.” Another great Satchel Paige story . . . In the 1942 Negro League World Series, Paige and Josh Gibson were on opposite teams. They’d been teammates before for many years, and each wanted to test their skills against the other. Paige’s team had a small lead in the ninth, with a man on third but two outs and Gibson in the hole. Paige deliberately walks the next two batters so that Gibson is up to bat with the bases loaded and two outs, to decide the World Series. Paige proceeds to strike him out on three straight pitches, talking smack the whole time. He sure was something.
A little about me? Okay, sure, Burt isn’t looking. My great, great, great grandmother was Doris Sans, who if you didn’t know was a six-tool player for the AAGPBL. My great, great grandmother was a Brooklyn Dodgers fan whose heart was broken when they were shipped off to Los Angeles. My great grandmother was a die-hard Mets fan who sent Tom Seaver her underwear no less than three times. My grandparents moved to Pittsburgh because of my grandfather’s job and they took up rooting for the Pirates. You’d think it was a different world then; when they talk about it they talk about how hopeless that team was. Hard to believe, right? A time when the Pirates were considered hopeless? I never got to experience that. When my mother was eleven Shane Callahan took over the Pirates. She was fifteen when they won 100 games for the first time. She was sixteen when they won their first World Series in this century. I grew up with stories of Roberto Vasti and Jameson Taillon, of baseball the way it was meant to be played. My parents have an autographed picture of Shane Callahan over their dining room table and I don’t think it’s ever coming down. If I had a nickel every time I heard that the Pirates had been to the playoffs more than any other team because this is God's city . . . Let’s just say baseball is in my blood. Reminds me of a funny story -
Oh, are you my last four? Okay. Well everybody, I hope you’re ready for a full day, because this knowledge train is leaving the station! Follow me, okay, through these doors, and here we are. This is the Honorable Mention section. As you can imagine, there are a lot of them. That’s why this is a pyramid, because there are fewer at the top than at the bottom. Our first stop . . . Catchers!
** It's me. Just be patient with this. If my estimates are accurate, even if everything goes well this should take two-three months to crank out.