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Post by David_ExposGM on Oct 16, 2016 8:50:54 GMT -5
Personally, I think Shane is a pretty great PBL player, possibly greatest ever? But that might just be me...........
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Post by MetDaMeats on Oct 16, 2016 9:54:33 GMT -5
I'm voting for Duane Hansen in 20 years.
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Post by Tim_GiantsGM on Oct 16, 2016 10:39:43 GMT -5
Both Kono and Vasti are great players but it's not like Vasti was an elite defender during his prime. Both have been a DH for quite awhile. For me, the bottom line is this. If you value walks and singles more than 2B, 3B, and HR's then you like Vasti. The difference in walks/singles for me does not trump the difference in xbh. Steals essentially turn a single into an xbh as well. I have been rethinking my "Vasti by a whisker" take since I posted. I have to agree with you. Vast was a better outfielder, but neither played a key, "up the middle" defensive position. So, focusing on hitting... In addition to lifetime rate and counting stats, which are eye-popping for both players, it seems that a greatest player discussion should include PBL single season and career records. The leaderboard lists the following: Kono holds the single season record for slugging (.721) and total bases (468), both recorded in 2020. Ho also holds the all-time record in home runs (866), total bases (7,161), and runs batted in (2,458). Vasti holds the all-time record in walks (2,005) and wins above replacement (144.7). Both were great, but upon further review the marks achieved by Kono are mind-boggling. They may never be broken. I think he must be considered the greatest player in league history.
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Post by BlueJaysGM_Fin on Oct 16, 2016 13:34:57 GMT -5
I find it interesting, considering what Sean stated earlier (OBP vs. slugging), that Vasti carries the greater career OPS+ (165) than Kono's 159.
Why is this important in this discussion? According to fangraphs, On-base Plus Slugging Plus (OPS+) has not gained as much widespread acceptance, but is a more informative metric than OPS. This statistic normalizes a player’s OPS — it adjusts for small variables that might affect OPS scores (e.g. park effects) and puts the statistic on an easy-to-understand scale. A 100 OPS+ is league average, and each point up or down is one percentage point above or below league average.
Many sabermetricians don’t like OPS because it treats OBP as equal in value with SLG, while OBP is roughly twice as important as SLG in terms of its effect on run scoring (x1.8 to be exact).
Someone could make the case IF both played in a neutral environment, it suggests Vasti is the better offensive player. Something to consider, although I do not have a horse in this race.
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Post by Texas Rangers on Oct 16, 2016 19:03:57 GMT -5
It's Aaron Hicks. That's the answer. Vasti, Kono and Guzman are the best hitters in the history of the PBL, and some of the best in the history of baseball. But if the question is who was the best PLAYER, not hitter, the answer is Hicks.
At his peak, he was unmatched in the PBL. He suffered from mismanagement during most of his tenure with the Cubs, so he toiled on some bad teams. And he aged worse than the above named players, losing a lot both as a fielder and hitter. But his peak, wow:
From his rookie season in 2012 (age 22, 6.8 WAR) through his age 30 season in 2020, his WAR totals were----6.8, 7.9, 7.9, 10.2, 11.3, 12.7, 9.9, 9.2, 10.6. That 6 year run is the best 6 year run of any player in the history of baseball.
In those last 6 seasons, he was literally a perfect player. Look at his 2017 season, the one where he put up 12.7 WAR, the most in PBL history and more than anyone has ever had save for two Babe Ruth seasons. He led the league with a .347 AVG and .438 OBP, hit 43 HR, scored 131 runs on an 80 win team, and won a Gold Glove for his +28 runs in CF defense. He struck out just 56 times. He was both the best offensive and best defensive player in the league at this time.
He was a do it all player who in his prime had zero weaknesses, and his prime was not a quick flash but a sustained period of consistent dominance.
The answer is Aaron Hicks.
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Post by Peter - Boston Red Sox on Oct 16, 2016 19:38:48 GMT -5
It's Aaron Hicks. That's the answer. Vasti, Kono and Guzman are the best hitters in the history of the PBL, and some of the best in the history of baseball. But if the question is who was the best PLAYER, not hitter, the answer is Hicks. At his peak, he was unmatched in the PBL. He suffered from mismanagement during most of his tenure with the Cubs, so he toiled on some bad teams. And he aged worse than the above named players, losing a lot both as a fielder and hitter. But his peak, wow: From his rookie season in 2012 (age 22, 6.8 WAR) through his age 30 season in 2020, his WAR totals were----6.8, 7.9, 7.9, 10.2, 11.3, 12.7, 9.9, 9.2, 10.6. That 6 year run is the best 6 year run of any player in the history of baseball. In those last 6 seasons, he was literally a perfect player. Look at his 2017 season, the one where he put up 12.7 WAR, the most in PBL history and more than anyone has ever had save for two Babe Ruth seasons. He led the league with a .347 AVG and .438 OBP, hit 43 HR, scored 131 runs on an 80 win team, and won a Gold Glove for his +28 runs in CF defense. He struck out just 56 times. He was both the best offensive and best defensive player in the league at this time. He was a do it all player who in his prime had zero weaknesses, and his prime was not a quick flash but a sustained period of consistent dominance. The answer is Aaron Hicks. Latest rumor around Chicago is that if I don't turn the Cubs around soon, ownership will install Hicks to run things. Still a fan favorite, the thinking is that not only will he provide sound baseball management from his years in the game but he will get butts in the seats. Butts in the seats is sorely needed as the team has struggled over the last several years, languishing near the bottom of the league in attendance. So...I hear Hicks nipping at my heels!
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Post by Dustin Ackley on Oct 16, 2016 22:40:49 GMT -5
Dustin Ackley
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Post by Tim_GiantsGM on Oct 16, 2016 22:59:42 GMT -5
I was waiting for you to weigh in, Anthony.
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Post by NickP_Marlins GM on Oct 16, 2016 23:23:44 GMT -5
I was waiting for you to weigh in, Anthony. Love the fact that he's all yours! Poor guy won it all early and then the Strasburg trade happen. I think that's how it went right?, lol
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Post by Dustin Ackley on Oct 17, 2016 9:53:00 GMT -5
I would love to see an "all pbl" team. A player at every position.
And i was a little late to the party for this thread. That Strasburg trade still haunts me.
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Post by Derek _ Red Sox on Oct 17, 2016 15:57:40 GMT -5
I was waiting for Anthony to weigh in as well. LOL. Dustin Ackley was a no brainer on his list..
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Post by Derek _ Red Sox on Oct 17, 2016 15:58:27 GMT -5
Aaron Hicks was unreal. I miss StatsLabs for these discussions but with the switch to 17 I had trouble with it. I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to get it going again for these discussions.
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Post by Marvin Webb on Oct 25, 2016 14:07:48 GMT -5
Marvin Webb fo sho.
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Post by Derek _ Red Sox on Oct 25, 2016 20:12:58 GMT -5
This made me LOL.
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Post by Dustin Ackley on Oct 26, 2016 8:40:42 GMT -5
Aaron Hicks was unreal. I miss StatsLabs for these discussions but with the switch to 17 I had trouble with it. I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to get it going again for these discussions. Delete it from the server and start fresh. I've had no issues with Statslab and OOTP 17.
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