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Post by Texas Rangers on Jan 19, 2017 20:56:35 GMT -5
If Bud Selig, who oversaw the game during the steroid years is in the HoF, why aren't the players who thrived during that era?The 80s and 90s are the least represented decades in the hall - because crotchety old writers hold their moral compass up and they alone can pass judgement and not vote for them (honestly, my Indians beat writer submitted yet another BLANK ballot*). Unless they institute another 'Pete Rose can't be inducted because he's banned' rule, then voters shouldn't hold these players out. The truth is we'll never really know who juiced and who didn't. Players that tested positive paid for their crimes via suspensions. I say judge them versus their contemporaries and vote accordingly. Roids can get you back on the field quicker. They can help your deadlift and bench press. I just don't see them helping you hit a curveball. If McGwire, Sosa, Canseco, Bonds, Clemens, Ramirez and Palmero aren't inducted or are removed from consideration you might as well erase a decade of MLB history and just pretend it never happened. But without them, after the 94 strike, where would the league be? Also, why does the BBWAA ballot look like a middle school note to a girl "do you like me, circle yes or no"**. * www.cleveland.com/livingston/index.ssf/2017/01/why_i_abstained_on_my_baseball.html#incart_river_index** www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2017/01/hall_of_fame_baseball.html#incart_river_index Exactly, all this. It's a museum. Present the history. And these same writers had no problems when the heroes of their youth took amphetamines daily. The Hall will be in much better shape when the Murray Chass morons die off and there are writers who actually understand the sport voting.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2017 21:03:25 GMT -5
Babe Ruth didn't compete against the best baseball players, because Black and Hispanic players were not allowed. I am always shocked that this doesn't get brought up more. That's a big deal. That's without getting into teams not having farm systems, scouting was the equivalent of a monkey with a dartboard, and people thought it uncouth to do things like throw breaking pitches or try to prevent people from stealing bases or take the starting pitcher out because he's doing poorly. Babe Ruth put up the best stats ever, no doubt. He also played entirely pre-1947, and thus wasn't competing against the best players, as every other great hitter that gets thrown into the discussion had. I feel the HoF addressed this with their Negro League inductions (staring in 71 and a bit of true-up in 06). BTW - "The Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Baseball Leagues" is one of the best books I've ever purchased. I use to try to re-create the Negro Leagues in various forms (Old-Time Baseball and Tony LaRussa Baseball in the day). If anyone knows of a OOTP version please let me know - I've found various quick-starts and leagues for older versions of the game, but nothing for OOTP16 or OOTP17.
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Post by David_ExposGM on Jan 19, 2017 21:14:46 GMT -5
Babe Ruth didn't compete against the best baseball players, because Black and Hispanic players were not allowed. I am always shocked that this doesn't get brought up more. That's a big deal. That's without getting into teams not having farm systems, scouting was the equivalent of a monkey with a dartboard, and people thought it uncouth to do things like throw breaking pitches or try to prevent people from stealing bases or take the starting pitcher out because he's doing poorly. Babe Ruth put up the best stats ever, no doubt. He also played entirely pre-1947, and thus wasn't competing against the best players, as every other great hitter that gets thrown into the discussion had. I freely admit the history of baseball is not my forte, in any way. And I completely acknowledge your point above about the segregation. My question would be however, wouldn't the fact there weren't dozens of "Ruth's" still speak to his uniqueness in that era? And in baseball in general?
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Post by Ryan_NatsGM on Jan 19, 2017 21:46:41 GMT -5
The 80s and 90s are the least represented decades in the hall - because crotchety old writers hold their moral compass up and they alone can pass judgement and not vote for them (honestly, my Indians beat writer submitted yet another BLANK ballot*). Unless they institute another 'Pete Rose can't be inducted because he's banned' rule, then voters shouldn't hold these players out. The truth is we'll never really know who juiced and who didn't. Players that tested positive paid for their crimes via suspensions. I say judge them versus their contemporaries and vote accordingly. Agree with this. If the institution that implemented the rules and tested the players can't say whether or not a player is disqualified from the Hall of Fame for steroids (or gambling, or whatever), how is some team's beat writer going to determine who cheated and who didn't? It's a gigantic gray area, and I agree the best way to deal with it is judging them against their contemporaries. I'm good with everyone that got in this year, but I think everyone that got over 50% of the vote should get in at some point (maybe Vlad's iffy). Hell, even Manny Ramirez at 23.8% of the vote is broadly similar in production to Raines and Pudge. And that's before you factor in him spending his prime DH years out in right cutting off Johnny Damon's throws because he was on the same team as Ortiz.
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Post by Texas Rangers on Jan 19, 2017 21:49:15 GMT -5
Babe Ruth didn't compete against the best baseball players, because Black and Hispanic players were not allowed. I am always shocked that this doesn't get brought up more. That's a big deal. That's without getting into teams not having farm systems, scouting was the equivalent of a monkey with a dartboard, and people thought it uncouth to do things like throw breaking pitches or try to prevent people from stealing bases or take the starting pitcher out because he's doing poorly. Babe Ruth put up the best stats ever, no doubt. He also played entirely pre-1947, and thus wasn't competing against the best players, as every other great hitter that gets thrown into the discussion had. I freely admit the history of baseball is not my forte, in any way. And I completely acknowledge your point above about the segregation. My question would be however, wouldn't the fact there weren't dozens of "Ruth's" still speak to his uniqueness in that era? And in baseball in general? Ruth is one of the greatest hitters of all time, no doubt. He was the dominant player of his day, and dominated like nobody before or since has in any sport save maybe early Gretzky. I just think it's important to bring up that many top competitors couldn't compete. There are many from that era who said that Josh Gibson, the slugging catcher, was a better player than Ruth. It's hard to believe anyone could have put up those stats other than The Babe, but we'll never know.
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Post by Mac_Yankees GM on Jan 20, 2017 21:08:45 GMT -5
I freely admit the history of baseball is not my forte, in any way. And I completely acknowledge your point above about the segregation. My question would be however, wouldn't the fact there weren't dozens of "Ruth's" still speak to his uniqueness in that era? And in baseball in general? Ruth is one of the greatest hitters of all time, no doubt. He was the dominant player of his day, and dominated like nobody before or since has in any sport save maybe early Gretzky. I just think it's important to bring up that many top competitors couldn't compete. There are many from that era who said that Josh Gibson, the slugging catcher, was a better player than Ruth. It's hard to believe anyone could have put up those stats other than The Babe, but we'll never know. Josh Gibson is one of the fascinating players in baseball history. He died and the way too young age of 35. I have seen estimates of the total homeruns he hit as a professional range from 400 to 1,000. Unfortunately there was very little record keeping in the Negro leagues and also many of his games were with barnstorming teams. Perhaps the most exciting part of OOTP 18 will seeing how his stats play out in a league alongside the Babe
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